Did Paul not watch tv in the 70s and 80s?!!! Every show made fun of women and their incompetence. Even The Jetsons! You seriously cannot compare the two. If men get hurt from jokes at their expense, join the fucking club. It’s been happening to us since god knows when!
The second half is where this went somewhere for me: you traced the joke back to where it came from before deciding what to do with it. Two questions in my own writing ask the same thing. The second asks what reached you from outside and put it there: what you were told, what you were born into, what surrounds you, what you are fed daily. The third asks what it did to you, and what you handed over: what belief or mood or reaction it installed, and whose judgment is running this decision instead of yours. Melissa, once you saw how much of the anger the comments had put there, did it still feel like yours?
I think this is the important part. The same comment, statement, question, or joke can have a very different impact (on me) based on the context. Tying this joke I made to my energetic state (angry, dysregulated, reactive) is why I am now reconsidering the joke. And I also have to think, "Would a snarky comment about men ever come from a place of grounding, confidence, and regulation?" I kind of think no? But I'm exploring that more. I enjoy these kinds of introspective periods. I'm not doing it because I think I "have" to, I'm doing it because I benefit from it, and because I like learning more about myself.
What my body is trying to tell me, and whether I am allowed to treat it as information. That's what I'd ask of the anger too: which state it came from, before deciding what the joke meant. Thank you for taking it further, Melissa.
I’m curious how you’re channeling your rage in healthy ways… I’m feeling that too right now! Thanks for sharing your thoughts… I like how you pointed out that this is a broader and systemic issue for women and that the joke lands differently.
I want to talk about this!!!!! I have spent a LOT of time with rage over the last week, specifically. Let me sit with this for a bit and see how I can share effectively. ❤️
This is so well-written and communicated. Thank you for taking on the mental load to think through this and explain it in such a clear, succinct, and compassionate way.
And is Paul leading the charge to restructure society? Or just trying trying on different shoes and then throwing them in your face because the stilettos were the wrong color?
So, my current class is Structural Oppression and its implications for Social Work. We have discussed this exactly. Men (white men in particular) can experience prejudice and discrimination but they CANNOT, by definition, be oppressed. You cannot be oppressed by a system you designed and continue to implement. And if you (men) feel disgusted by it, then you (men) can change it.
And obviously this can’t happen in a vacuum and MY GOD am I tired of hearing men whine about Not All Men, etc. So, my feeling is, either speak up or accept that it’s all men, guys.
As for you, Melissa, I love that you took the time to reflect on this, and to an extent, I agree with you. But patriarchy (and we alllll participate in patriarchy) demands that women self reflect and does not have that same demand of men. And that sucks. We do not always need to be the bigger person. Sometimes men just need to be the butt of the joke. Turnabout is fair play, and all that.
You have seen me clap back on men without a self-analysis. I’m 100% comfortable with that. This one felt different, and I know myself well enough to know that I would benefit from sitting with it. Whether that comes from the system’s demands that women self-reflect (when men do not have that pressure) or my own personal growth work and integrity is hard to say. We are all swimming in that system and it’s sometimes hard to tease out its influence.
Exactly - individual men can ‘feel’ hurt, but as a population, nothing has changed. The Cornell incident is absolutely repulsive. I didn’t personally do it, I would never stand for anything like that, and have in fact called out people for displaying this behavior - yet it’s men. It’s people just like me. And I will lose my shit every single time - whether it’s someone I know or a complete stranger on trax. So - I will always try to be a better person - and perhaps someday - hopefully not a thousand years from now - the current system will be destroyed.
Sadly, society has a long ways to go. A few years ago I remember applauding a man who posted on FB that he finally realized he needed to change his ways. I had two female friends, both yoga instructors, one a psychologist - tell me that I needed to STFU. That mysogeny was essentially a right of passage for young women, and it toughens their skin for the future. Another female friend, attorney, tried convincing me that no woman has ever been raped, that they only claim it for attention. I call BS on all of that. I see there’s a problem, that people that look like me created the problem - and that people that don’t look like me also help to keep it going.
I'm so of two minds about this. On one hand, it's refreshing to see self-examination and self-growth, and a lack of judgment around that. I always want to be someone who follows the Maya Angelou, "Do the best you can until you know better, then you know better, do better," way of life. And I do appreciate the nuanced take here between individual prejudice and systemic sexism. And then the other part me thinks of the excellent Good Hang episode with Amy Poehler and Michelle Obama, where Amy says, "I think women should stop improving ourselves. I think we did it." Because like, yeah, men have a long way to go both individually and as a group to have a level of introspection and self-regulation to do what you just did. And I'm so tired of leading by example, being the bigger person, not letting "their" level of growth dictate mine.
Like why do you "have to" (you don't have to) write a post like this... but SNL can just... (gestures at current situation.) It's exhausting.
I hear this. It was worth it to explain to "Paul" how the two were different. And also, when he clearly didn't absorb that in his follow-up, I let that shit go. It's not my job to "better" men. On the other hand, I am always working on self-improvement. I'm constantly changing. My life is changing, my goals change. As I have capacity, I want to understand myself and my role in the world (and in this community) better. It's a personal mission, not one I'm taking on because I feel like I "have" to. When I share a reflection like this, it's because something about it bothered me, and I chose to sit with that until I better understood what it was. That's it.
This is where my brain goes. A man did design that trail. Its factually true. And we don't need to constantly apologize to the mens because their feelings got hurt. This is precious brain space being spent on men they don't deserve. I also don't believe we can magically coddle them into being better beings. If we could, the world would be much much better. Also, “be the better person” is so deeply rooted in patriarchy by making us stay small and quiet. Fuck that.
First pass, I just thought the comment was regarding the need to pee and how a man could just step off the trail a bit and go. *shrug*
Didn't consider the "bigger picture". The fact that there are still people who underestimate women or think of them as "weak" just seems to be a result of men not being humbled enough. As a young man, I always wondered why - for example - you don't see a lot of men in aerobics classes. Then I realized, aerobics is HARD! Incredibly humbling when I could just go be macho and lift weights.
My first jiu-jitsu instructor was a small Asian woman. She beat me up, twice a week, for a year before I learned enough to just hold her off for a minute before she whooped me. And I'm a 6'3", 280 pound man.
Like I said, it doesn't take a lot of those kind of humbling moments to make a person change any preconceived ideas about gender.
Your thoughtful analysis is clear and concise. It brought to my mind the comments about how people throw a ball or run. Generally, "you throw like a girl" or "you run like a girl" are considered insults. Statements that imply one is throwing or running in a "less than" manner. But, change it to "you throw like a real guy" or "you run like a man"... would likely be considered complimentary. And so, to your point...you sharpened it perfectly!!
Right? There you go! "Girl" is so often used in an insulting or derogatory fashion. Try insulting a man without invoking a woman (or a gay man). It's VERY hard, which just shows you how ingrained this association is.
I so appreciate your willingness to engage in self-examination. It would have been easy (and honestly, probably celebrated!) to send Paul off into the sunset with a dismissive hand-wave or a few choice words, but that is not your way-- and I appreciate that about you. You are not afraid to look at your own actions, and you demonstrate a both/and way of living. Please never stop being you out here in this world! We need you.
Not every joke needs a cross-examination. "A man designed this" is a punchline, not a policy position. Swapping the nouns doesn't swap the history behind them. You owed nobody a defense and wrote a thoughtful one anyway. My opinion: keep the jokes coming. The uphill finish is still a crime.
It was less a defense owed to anyone and more, "Why did the way I handled this interaction bother me after the fact." I've figured out that if something doesn't sit quite right with me, it's worth my time to sit with it for a bit. (And yes, the uphill finish IS the crime, and I stand by that.)
It's a tough one because creating a sea change really does take constant "publicity" to change minds and make people think and rally the troops, so to speak. But taking on and embedding ourselves into the constant cesspool that is social media can change the fabric of who we are and who we want to be.
(Example....I was work besties w a gal whose marriage was failing.....and being mired in those sentiments and conversations day after day.....I realized one day that if I didnt separate myself that I was going to ruin my relationship.)
I got the resentment buried in your comment when it first went up....and we all know it wasn't based in statistics but more in "designed by a man so probably harder and dumber than it needs to be".....and I mean....fair. Women have been the butt of jokes and rudeness our whole existence and now that we're getting louder, older and less tolerant, and theyre getting what they gave, the men dont like it. Well too f*cking bad.
This is the challenge with social media in a nutshell. It DOES take a loud and public campaign, it seems, to impart even a modicum of change when it comes to the patriarchy (see: #MeToo). And also, "fixing" men as a whole cannot and will not be my job. I have to figure out where I personally draw that line--advocacy without it sucking me down into a swirling tornado of rage and doom.
Thank you for sharing and your follow ups as always! ♥️
Did Paul not watch tv in the 70s and 80s?!!! Every show made fun of women and their incompetence. Even The Jetsons! You seriously cannot compare the two. If men get hurt from jokes at their expense, join the fucking club. It’s been happening to us since god knows when!
Yepppppppppp
The second half is where this went somewhere for me: you traced the joke back to where it came from before deciding what to do with it. Two questions in my own writing ask the same thing. The second asks what reached you from outside and put it there: what you were told, what you were born into, what surrounds you, what you are fed daily. The third asks what it did to you, and what you handed over: what belief or mood or reaction it installed, and whose judgment is running this decision instead of yours. Melissa, once you saw how much of the anger the comments had put there, did it still feel like yours?
I think this is the important part. The same comment, statement, question, or joke can have a very different impact (on me) based on the context. Tying this joke I made to my energetic state (angry, dysregulated, reactive) is why I am now reconsidering the joke. And I also have to think, "Would a snarky comment about men ever come from a place of grounding, confidence, and regulation?" I kind of think no? But I'm exploring that more. I enjoy these kinds of introspective periods. I'm not doing it because I think I "have" to, I'm doing it because I benefit from it, and because I like learning more about myself.
What my body is trying to tell me, and whether I am allowed to treat it as information. That's what I'd ask of the anger too: which state it came from, before deciding what the joke meant. Thank you for taking it further, Melissa.
I’m curious how you’re channeling your rage in healthy ways… I’m feeling that too right now! Thanks for sharing your thoughts… I like how you pointed out that this is a broader and systemic issue for women and that the joke lands differently.
I want to talk about this!!!!! I have spent a LOT of time with rage over the last week, specifically. Let me sit with this for a bit and see how I can share effectively. ❤️
This is so well-written and communicated. Thank you for taking on the mental load to think through this and explain it in such a clear, succinct, and compassionate way.
Thank you so much, I really appreciate that ❤️
And is Paul leading the charge to restructure society? Or just trying trying on different shoes and then throwing them in your face because the stilettos were the wrong color?
👏👏
So, my current class is Structural Oppression and its implications for Social Work. We have discussed this exactly. Men (white men in particular) can experience prejudice and discrimination but they CANNOT, by definition, be oppressed. You cannot be oppressed by a system you designed and continue to implement. And if you (men) feel disgusted by it, then you (men) can change it.
And obviously this can’t happen in a vacuum and MY GOD am I tired of hearing men whine about Not All Men, etc. So, my feeling is, either speak up or accept that it’s all men, guys.
As for you, Melissa, I love that you took the time to reflect on this, and to an extent, I agree with you. But patriarchy (and we alllll participate in patriarchy) demands that women self reflect and does not have that same demand of men. And that sucks. We do not always need to be the bigger person. Sometimes men just need to be the butt of the joke. Turnabout is fair play, and all that.
You have seen me clap back on men without a self-analysis. I’m 100% comfortable with that. This one felt different, and I know myself well enough to know that I would benefit from sitting with it. Whether that comes from the system’s demands that women self-reflect (when men do not have that pressure) or my own personal growth work and integrity is hard to say. We are all swimming in that system and it’s sometimes hard to tease out its influence.
Exactly - individual men can ‘feel’ hurt, but as a population, nothing has changed. The Cornell incident is absolutely repulsive. I didn’t personally do it, I would never stand for anything like that, and have in fact called out people for displaying this behavior - yet it’s men. It’s people just like me. And I will lose my shit every single time - whether it’s someone I know or a complete stranger on trax. So - I will always try to be a better person - and perhaps someday - hopefully not a thousand years from now - the current system will be destroyed.
Dennis - keep speaking up! It’s only when men like you keep doing it that others will follow suit.
Sadly, society has a long ways to go. A few years ago I remember applauding a man who posted on FB that he finally realized he needed to change his ways. I had two female friends, both yoga instructors, one a psychologist - tell me that I needed to STFU. That mysogeny was essentially a right of passage for young women, and it toughens their skin for the future. Another female friend, attorney, tried convincing me that no woman has ever been raped, that they only claim it for attention. I call BS on all of that. I see there’s a problem, that people that look like me created the problem - and that people that don’t look like me also help to keep it going.
To watch a man lose his shit over another man’s misogyny or abuse gives me such a needed ray of hope.
Yeah - it’ll get me arrested one of these days. But the thought of someone groping my niece, or someone else’s, just doesn’t sit well with me.
I'm so of two minds about this. On one hand, it's refreshing to see self-examination and self-growth, and a lack of judgment around that. I always want to be someone who follows the Maya Angelou, "Do the best you can until you know better, then you know better, do better," way of life. And I do appreciate the nuanced take here between individual prejudice and systemic sexism. And then the other part me thinks of the excellent Good Hang episode with Amy Poehler and Michelle Obama, where Amy says, "I think women should stop improving ourselves. I think we did it." Because like, yeah, men have a long way to go both individually and as a group to have a level of introspection and self-regulation to do what you just did. And I'm so tired of leading by example, being the bigger person, not letting "their" level of growth dictate mine.
Like why do you "have to" (you don't have to) write a post like this... but SNL can just... (gestures at current situation.) It's exhausting.
I hear this. It was worth it to explain to "Paul" how the two were different. And also, when he clearly didn't absorb that in his follow-up, I let that shit go. It's not my job to "better" men. On the other hand, I am always working on self-improvement. I'm constantly changing. My life is changing, my goals change. As I have capacity, I want to understand myself and my role in the world (and in this community) better. It's a personal mission, not one I'm taking on because I feel like I "have" to. When I share a reflection like this, it's because something about it bothered me, and I chose to sit with that until I better understood what it was. That's it.
This is where my brain goes. A man did design that trail. Its factually true. And we don't need to constantly apologize to the mens because their feelings got hurt. This is precious brain space being spent on men they don't deserve. I also don't believe we can magically coddle them into being better beings. If we could, the world would be much much better. Also, “be the better person” is so deeply rooted in patriarchy by making us stay small and quiet. Fuck that.
First pass, I just thought the comment was regarding the need to pee and how a man could just step off the trail a bit and go. *shrug*
Didn't consider the "bigger picture". The fact that there are still people who underestimate women or think of them as "weak" just seems to be a result of men not being humbled enough. As a young man, I always wondered why - for example - you don't see a lot of men in aerobics classes. Then I realized, aerobics is HARD! Incredibly humbling when I could just go be macho and lift weights.
My first jiu-jitsu instructor was a small Asian woman. She beat me up, twice a week, for a year before I learned enough to just hold her off for a minute before she whooped me. And I'm a 6'3", 280 pound man.
Like I said, it doesn't take a lot of those kind of humbling moments to make a person change any preconceived ideas about gender.
This is an excellent analysis. I wish more men would subject themselves to hard things of THIS nature.
Your thoughtful analysis is clear and concise. It brought to my mind the comments about how people throw a ball or run. Generally, "you throw like a girl" or "you run like a girl" are considered insults. Statements that imply one is throwing or running in a "less than" manner. But, change it to "you throw like a real guy" or "you run like a man"... would likely be considered complimentary. And so, to your point...you sharpened it perfectly!!
Right? There you go! "Girl" is so often used in an insulting or derogatory fashion. Try insulting a man without invoking a woman (or a gay man). It's VERY hard, which just shows you how ingrained this association is.
I so appreciate your willingness to engage in self-examination. It would have been easy (and honestly, probably celebrated!) to send Paul off into the sunset with a dismissive hand-wave or a few choice words, but that is not your way-- and I appreciate that about you. You are not afraid to look at your own actions, and you demonstrate a both/and way of living. Please never stop being you out here in this world! We need you.
I appreciate that, thank you XO
Not every joke needs a cross-examination. "A man designed this" is a punchline, not a policy position. Swapping the nouns doesn't swap the history behind them. You owed nobody a defense and wrote a thoughtful one anyway. My opinion: keep the jokes coming. The uphill finish is still a crime.
It was less a defense owed to anyone and more, "Why did the way I handled this interaction bother me after the fact." I've figured out that if something doesn't sit quite right with me, it's worth my time to sit with it for a bit. (And yes, the uphill finish IS the crime, and I stand by that.)
It's a tough one because creating a sea change really does take constant "publicity" to change minds and make people think and rally the troops, so to speak. But taking on and embedding ourselves into the constant cesspool that is social media can change the fabric of who we are and who we want to be.
(Example....I was work besties w a gal whose marriage was failing.....and being mired in those sentiments and conversations day after day.....I realized one day that if I didnt separate myself that I was going to ruin my relationship.)
I got the resentment buried in your comment when it first went up....and we all know it wasn't based in statistics but more in "designed by a man so probably harder and dumber than it needs to be".....and I mean....fair. Women have been the butt of jokes and rudeness our whole existence and now that we're getting louder, older and less tolerant, and theyre getting what they gave, the men dont like it. Well too f*cking bad.
This is the challenge with social media in a nutshell. It DOES take a loud and public campaign, it seems, to impart even a modicum of change when it comes to the patriarchy (see: #MeToo). And also, "fixing" men as a whole cannot and will not be my job. I have to figure out where I personally draw that line--advocacy without it sucking me down into a swirling tornado of rage and doom.